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Woodbury drivers struggle with roundabout



I found this story on Kstp interesting with 19 accidents since December when it was put in. I think there should be a tv show or video or something to show people how to drive these. In england you take your driver's training on some rotaries (roundabouts). Here people just don't know how to operate on them.
http://kstp.com/article/stories/S493949.shtml?cat=1


Is the landscaping as bad in...

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Is the landscaping as bad in Woodbury as it is in the one we have? The visibility if there is on coming traffic is horrible. I understand they will reduce the speed limit when approaching the intersection on Hwy 15 but I do not see how this will help cars coming from North High Drive. They will NEVER be able to get on w/o pushing the limits and that will cause accidents. I do not see the advantage of these on well driven roads. The one we have rarely has more than one car on it at a time so one doesn't have to stop needlessly, which is great, but on a busy street? It is illogical this will work. I wonder if anyone timed how long a car sat on N High Drive trying to get across, and I wonder how long it will take now, We know how long it would take with a light.


Submitted by arcy on June 30, 2008 - 6:56am.

There is a video, and has...

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There is a video, and has been for more than a year, on the Leader's Web site. Go towards the top of the page, click on news and scroll down to "Roundabout." There is about 30 seconds of footage showing a roundabout near New Prague on two fairly busy highways. You see eight cars (including a bus and what appears to be a sheriff's department squad car) negotiate the intersection, so that would be typical of the Highway 15/North High Drive intersection most of the day. As you will see, traffic flows easily, with only one or two cars actually having to stop.

As for the landscaping at the Montana/Fifth Avenue Northwest roundabout, I would agree it seems higher than the city engineer talked about when it was being planned. However, in theory, you aren't looking so much across the intersection when you enter the roundabout as you are to your left, which is clear whichever leg you enter from. You are to yield to traffic coming from your left already in the roundabout. I'll ask City Engineer Kent Exner if the landscaping is perhaps growing taller than they envisioned.

(Terry Davis is a Hutchinson Leader staff writer. E-mail him at davis@hutchinsonleader.com.)


Submitted by Terry Davis on June 30, 2008 - 7:59am.

The round about at Montana...

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The round about at Montana and 5th is very small in my estimation. I prefer to see if there is anyone coming from across it because it feels to me like a car if just entering, would have the right away over me and I would be only half way in when it gets to me. If cars in the circle stop because some one is in the way rear ends will abound. I have watched the video that is posted, the cars seem to be going much slower than our roads and add about 20 more cars to the mix and see how many end up stopping. Never have I been through N High drive and 15 and found it as little traveled as the video streets.
It is all mute at this point. Only time will tell.


Submitted by arcy on June 30, 2008 - 11:48am.

I would agree that the...

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I would agree that the video's 8 vehicles in about 30 seconds is not as busy as Highway 15/North High Drive at its peak traffic times of 7:30-8:30 a.m., noon hour or 4-6 p.m., but it is pretty close to traffic levels in other off-peak times.

Vehicles on Highway 15 will pass through the roundabout much slower than the current speed limit. The speed limit will be reduced after construction. I believe it will be 20 or 30 mph. Yes, it will take you longer if you are a Highway 15 driver going into or out of town, but we should not forget that the other two alternates, four-way stops or signals would have either required all vehicles to stop, or about half the traffic to stop half the time on either road. Besides, if you are on North High, you shouldn't have the several-minute waits you might have at times now.

As for costs, the roundabout is not significantly more expensive, according to MnDOT officials I've heard, than the roundabout because the signals cost at least $300,000, and additional land would have been needed to create left- and right-turn lanes. Those lanes also would have required much of the same construction leading up to the intersection as the roundabout.

As for safety, there seems to be a lot of documentation out that not only are the number of crashes reduced, but their severity is also. Four-ways stops and signals are not safer. Since December, there has been about one severe crash per month at signaled intersections on Highway 15 in Hutchinson, usually involving someone running a red light or failing to yield and turning left into the path of someone who has a green light. Those types of t-bone crashes should be reduced or eliminated in a roundabout situation. The crashes, which should be fewer in number, will be more glancing blows than deadly t-bone crashes.

Still waiting to hear from the city engineer on the Montana roundabout landscaping issue.

(Terry Davis is a Hutchinson Leader staff writer. E-mail him at davis@hutchinsonleader.com.)


Submitted by Terry Davis on June 30, 2008 - 2:13pm.

It would be nice to see...

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It would be nice to see across. Otherwise that is a blind spot. The reason I always look across is to determine the speed the other vehicle or car or motorcycle is coming towards you. Some people will take a roundabout real slow, Some will go as fast as their tires can handle. So seeing who is coming around. You know if you can get on the roundabout or not. Otherwise it's a guessing game.

There is alot of people from canada and other states that will be driving on highway 15 that have never seen a roundabout before. Those are the people who will have most of the trouble.

People towing. Will have to distance themselves to get on the roundabout. Semi's as well. If a semi breaks down in the roundabout. I sure hope they can get someone to tow it out of the way quickly. The roundabouts I know are two lanes. Those are more tricky then a single lane. Because not only do you need to get in the roundabout, But you'll also need to navigate lanes. I don't know what kind of roundabout they are putting in here. I'm hoping a single lane. Less chance of people hitting each other or getting cut off by a trailer. Trailers don't follow the vehicle in a curve. They either are more left or right of the towing vehicle. What determines that towing angle will be the size of the roundabout. If you have a huge roundabout then the turn angle is more gradual and probably won't take up alot of space or two lanes. If it's a small roundabout. The truck or vehicle has to turn sharper which means the trailer may ride in the second lane. So thats something to keep in mind if you are driving behind a vehicle towing something. Semi's and campers you'll see that the most being they are longer.

For hutchinson people they will just need to take their time and learn how to use it. Maybe go there at a time when traffic is not at full swing.


Submitted by Peanut on June 30, 2008 - 11:02pm.

City Engineer Kent Exner...

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City Engineer Kent Exner replied that the current landscaping at the Montana Street roundabout is "fully acceptable."

While there is differing opinion on roundabout landscaping, he said "the primary thing is as long as it doesn't block the critical sight lines of the motorists, which is looking to your left."

In fact, he said, "we want to discourage people for that matter from being able to look across" so that they focus on looking left when traffic will be coming from.

As for the Highway 15 roundabout, he said MnDOT is essentially leaving the city "a blank palette" with dirt in the middle for the city to come up with a landscaping design for MnDOT's approval.

Since both roads coming into this new roundabout are only two-lanes (one in each direction), this will be a single-lane roundabout — as simple as it gets. Similar to Montana Street's, only larger in diameter and with an extra (4th) leg.

(Terry Davis is a Hutchinson Leader staff writer. E-mail him at davis@hutchinsonleader.com.)


Submitted by Terry Davis on July 1, 2008 - 8:13am.

So it is the City Engineers'...

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So it is the City Engineers' plan that everyone suppress any and all driving instructions and instincts they have honed and NOT look all directions, not anticipate any and all possibilities before entering an intersection? Great plan. No wonder Woodbury is having accidents. Today at the intersection of Golf Course Road and N High Drive a gentlemen put on his left hand turn signal but remained in the right lane. A car from behind pulled into the left hand turn lane. They both did as the engineer suggests and proceeded assuming they were clear to both turn left. It is fortunate there was not a collision.


Submitted by arcy on July 1, 2008 - 7:27pm.

I wonder. Will there be any...

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I wonder. Will there be any street lights around this roundabout? Like those little black street lights on main street down each sidewalk. Or is that going to be dark area?


Submitted by Peanut on July 1, 2008 - 9:38pm.

We have been using the...

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We have been using the roundabout on the Golf Course Road since the detour has been put in place. It seems to be working okay but I also noted that the speed limit is reduced to 15 MPH when entering the roundabout. It is MnDOT's intention to reduce the speeds on Highway 15 and North High Drive to 15 MPH so that all traffic will be able to negotiate the intersection? If so, I think this will work okay; however, if the speed limit will remain at 45 MPH I think there will be problems. And, keep the landscaping out - a clearer vision will definitely help this "new" way of navigating an intersection and our older drivers will definitely need some time and practice getting used to this one!!


Submitted by JaneDoe_22 on July 2, 2008 - 9:00am.

No stopping? Bet not! I...

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No stopping? Bet not! I drive the round-about every day. Today was the first day I have used it when there was more than one other car in a two block radius. NEVER have I seen someone go south toward Hwy 7 on it, or come from that direction. As I approached headed to the golf course there were three of us entering the round about. The only car going opposite of us toward Rocket Park STOPPED before entering. It is so small and the visibility so poor drivers have no way of knowing when a car is getting OFF i.e. when is it their turn??? If you had time to signal it couldn't be seen and since everyone is going right what would it mean. We all got off one after the other. After we went by the stopped truck entered. What did the round about save him? If the road toward 7 had had a stop sign no one would have slowed down or STOPPED.


Submitted by arcy on July 2, 2008 - 2:57pm.

I don't think anyone ever...

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I don't think anyone ever said a roundabout eliminates all stopping. In higher traffic situations, of course someone is going to have to yield to someone already in the intersection. In lower traffic times, motorists may only have to slow to the 20 to 30 mph range.

The Highway 15 roundabout will be a larger diameter to handle the greater volume of traffic and larger vehicles it typically gets compared to Fifth Avenue/Golf Course Road/Montana Street.

The success of the newest roundabout will be whether over time we see a reduction in the number of fatal and near fatal crashes at Hwy. 15/North High Drive. In my 23 1/2 years here at the Leader, it is somewhat amazing the number of crashes there when you consider the sight-lines are clear for a long ways in each direction. Engineers, unfortunately, are left engineering to make things safe for all of us, including the good drivers to protect us from the not so good drivers.

But with so many people having one hand to their ear and another holding a cup of coffee, maybe it isn't so surprising we have so many collisions. What next, steering columns with inboard screens so we can play video games while we drive, too?

(Terry Davis is a Hutchinson Leader staff writer. E-mail him at davis@hutchinsonleader.com.)


Submitted by Terry Davis on July 2, 2008 - 5:15pm.

What next, steering columns...

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What next, steering columns with inboard screens so we can play video games while we drive, too?

Well, I just read this week that Chrysler is producing a car that will be a wi fi hotspot. So look for people wearing a cell earphone and microphone, a cup of coffee in one hand, the other hand typing on their laptop and driving with their knees, probably!


Submitted by flowerladytoo on July 2, 2008 - 8:20pm.

I re-read all the comments...

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I re-read all the comments here and see where Terry did not say car will NEVER have to stop. It is interesting what one reads and what one understands. I remember "hearing" one of the #1 reasons for the round about vs. lights on Hwy 15 was that traffic would always flow with no stopping... I must have misunderstood.
I guess the bottom line for me is given the round about we have and the boon doggle it appears to be, I don't trust the money being spend is justified nor do I trust anyones word over my own experience on how wonderful these round abouts are.


Submitted by arcy on July 3, 2008 - 7:09am.

One point perhaps gets...

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One point perhaps gets forgotten with the Golf Course Road/Montana roundabout. It might appear to be overkill for two streets that are somewhat quiet. However, it was built with the thought that the area to the north, between Golf Course/Fifth Avenue and North High Drive likely will be developed in time and a fourth leg of the intersection will be added to the north side. If or when that happens, there likely will be a lot more traffic through that area. At that time, Montana could become the more dominant traffic generator, not Golf Course.

(Terry Davis is a Hutchinson Leader staff writer. E-mail him at davis@hutchinsonleader.com.)


Submitted by Terry Davis on July 3, 2008 - 8:32am.

I thought the LEADER should...

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I thought the LEADER should be open-minded on things but it sounds like Terry is riding in Kents back pocket. I think this is one of the better screw ups Hutchinson has pulled off in a while. The Leader did a survey and most of the people didn't want it, so much for voting. Anyone who has lived in the area knows there are plenty of ways to stay away from this area just like everyone knows to stay away from Main Street on Friday nights after 4PM unless you go to a stoplight intersection. Oh I'm sorry they don't work i forgot.


Submitted by chevyduramax on July 8, 2008 - 11:27am.

Mr. Duramax: It isn't that...

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Mr. Duramax:
It isn't that I'm for or against roundabouts, I see my role is to provide information and to clarify when people make assumptions that are not true. I do, though, see a roundabout as preferred over four-ways and signals in terms of energy savings. If most vehicles do not have to stop and start, you save fuel.

One false assumption is that this is a city project. It is not. It is a MnDOT (state) project. The city is doing some water and sewer work that was needed anyway, about 20 percent of the cost.

A second false assumption might be that a Leader poll, taken recently while the project is already in progress, has weight on the council's decision to go forward with their limited part of the project. That isn't realistic. That decision was made months ago. We are a representative democracy. We elect people to represent us to make decisions. We don't usually vote on very many of those issues

Why don't we just wait and see how the roundabout works and pass judgment 6-12 months down the road. I pretty confident the vast majority of drivers will figure it out. If they can't figure out a simple single-lane roundabout, we have more serious safety issues on the road with many drivers to worry about. Just this past weekend someone ran a red light at Highway 15 and Edmonton and sent both drivers to the hospital. Are signals the safer option?

(Terry Davis is a Hutchinson Leader staff writer. E-mail him at davis@hutchinsonleader.com.)


Submitted by Terry Davis on July 8, 2008 - 3:01pm.

Mr. Davis Why don't you take...

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Mr. Davis
Why don't you take sometime and tell the people how to drive in a roundabout. Tell them how to enter coming from all directions and how to get out of the roundabout. Don't tell them to look at a 30 sec. movie take some of the unknown and fear away from the people so they know how to deal with it. Print the things you should and not do. Maybe this would help people understand. Show pages from the MN. Drivers Manual things like that and put it in the paper and shopper so people see it.


Submitted by chevyduramax on July 8, 2008 - 4:18pm.

So we are all agreeing there...

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So we are all agreeing there are problems out there compounded by the number of drivers who cannot or do not follow or understand standard driving procedures. Knowing that; it was decided to add a new and exciting way to drive into the mix. One that is different than anything ever experienced or taught. That sounds like a great plan! Moving on to something that could be changed, who decided to NOT put a temporary four way stop at the corner of School Rd and Golf Course road? They did last time they were rerouting traffic and it is sorely needed again with all the traffic flowing through there.


Submitted by arcy on July 9, 2008 - 7:23am.

Come on! Are the doubters...

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Come on! Are the doubters saying that people in Hutchinson are too dumb to figure out how to use a roundabout? People here can figure out how to use computers, cell phones, ipods and complex machinery, but they're too dumb to figure out a roundabout?

This makes me laugh and should make Hutchinson's residents offended at how stupid some of the comments here paint them. Yeah, I guess we should do everything the same way forever because we're just too set in our ways and too stupid to learn. After all, Hutchinson is only a hick town full of stupid farmers, right?

Wrong.


Submitted by Miller62 on July 9, 2008 - 12:12pm.

Most of the traffic is going...

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Most of the traffic is going to be out of town. Most people never heard of a roundabout let alone drove one.

Also I never got a answer about street lights yet. If they put up street lights around it. I don't see how that saves the city electric.

In england when you take your driver's training. You get a little panflit on nothing but how to drive rotaries. What to do on it. How to use it. What to do if you break down in the middle of it. What to do if you meet a emergency vehicle such as a ambulance. Who has the right away.


Submitted by Peanut on July 9, 2008 - 7:27pm.

Miller62: What's wrong with...

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Miller62: What's wrong with giving people instructions? Many people have never driven in a roundabout. We've driven all over the U.S. and have yet to drive in one, including large cities. Don't tell me you sat down in front of a computer and knew what to do for the first time without some sort of instructions. Why not issue proper and safe procedures for driving in a roundabout? There wiil be campers, boats, semis and all sorts of vehicles that may get backed up in one. I think the Hutch Police Dept. should publish procedures for roundabouts. I worked in a factory for 36 years and never met anyone who didn't have to be shown or instructed at least once for different situations. People in Hutch are not dumb but everyone needs help sometime!!!!!! And this is all new to most people.
P.S. I'm one of those hick farm kids!!!!!!!


Submitted by chevyduramax on July 9, 2008 - 3:13pm.

How to drive in a...

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How to drive in a roundabout:
See 15 MPH sign
See Yield sign
See arrow sign (directs you to go right)
Slow to 15 MPH
Yield (this does not mean stop)
Turn right
Follow the circle to your "exit"
Exit roundabout


Submitted by muellerleile on July 9, 2008 - 3:28pm.

I've written many times...

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I've written many times about navigating roundabouts on the Leader's Web site and in the print edition. It is pretty simple, really, and to get practice, use the one at Montana and Golf Course Road.

You approach the intersection. The speed limit will be about 30 mph on State Highway 15, I believe. As you come to the intersection, look to your left, since all traffic should be coming from that direction. That's not to say it isn't a good quick glance to the right to see if someone is totally out of it and driving the wrong way.

If someone is in the intersection and nearing the leg you are in, you must yield. If there isn't anyone there, you can proceed to the right, without coming to a complete stop. Signal your right turn when you near the leg you wish to get off on. For example, if you are southbound on Hwy. 15 and want to go east on North High Drive Northeast to Burns Manor, proceed to the right and follow the roundabout around to the left past North High Drive Northeast, past Highway 15 on the opposite side of where you entered and exit right onto North High Drive Northeast. You would have gone three-fourths of the way around the roundabout.

If you were just continuing south to downtown on 15, get off at the second leg, after passing North Highway Drive Northwest.

Try Montana's roundabout. It is even simpler with only three legs for now, perhaps a fourth in the future if Montana is extended north.

(Terry Davis is a Hutchinson Leader staff writer. E-mail him at davis@hutchinsonleader.com.)


Submitted by Terry Davis on July 9, 2008 - 3:42pm.

"...between Golf...

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"...between Golf Course/Fifth Avenue and North High Drive likely will be developed in time and a fourth leg of the intersection will be added to the north side...."
What is the time line here for this development? What would ONE stop sign have cost? What did the round about cost? How much interest would the difference have generated if that money had been put into the bank until/if there was a traffic flow problem.
What age do you have to be TODAY to think you will live to see that fourth leg put in let alone a traffic issue ensue at that intersection??


Submitted by arcy on July 10, 2008 - 7:03am.

I would guess that it was...

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I would guess that it was assumed that it would be developed quickly since all the other land had been developed around it and there were signs put up to buy lots on the land. We just happened to hit a housing crunch that has prevented much development in the last couple years. I would think that would be one of the first places you will see a new housing development when things turnaround. Only building roads to match current needs is part of the traffic problem that has occured in larger cities. Roads were only built to accomodate traffic at the time and they were soon outdated rather than thinking forward and building accordingly.


Submitted by gopher5 on July 10, 2008 - 7:20am.

Well, I never meant to...

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Well, I never meant to suggest that printed instructions for people to use the roundabout should not be available, but I didn't even consider the idea, as the whole thing is so obvious. I'll grant you that it's unfamiliar to most people and it does take getting a little used to.

My only complaint about the roundabout at Montana St. is that the tall grass in the islands ( not the center island) as you approach is too high, and if you're driving a regular car it's hard to see through it to your left once you're actually ready to enter into the roundabout.

I think some people are upset with the new one on hwy 15 only because they won't get away with illegally passing on the shoulder anymore and making accidents more likely. That's one of the main reasons I'm all for the roundabout.


Submitted by Miller62 on July 10, 2008 - 10:17am.

It was amazing how many...

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It was amazing how many people used that turn lane as a passing lane when someone in front of them was turning left. The police should have had a cop their full time and they would have made a killing on tickets without even using much gas. The roundabout will so much safer and should keep traffic flowing as opposed to all the cars that were stopped there before. I think it will definitely be a much needed improvement.


Submitted by gopher5 on July 10, 2008 - 10:36am.

Rotaries or Roundabouts?...

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Rotaries or Roundabouts? Thats the real concern not how to drive them but what to call them. I fully believe that even arcy will be able to handle the driving part eventually. (complain yes but no problem driving them).
We could be bragging that we have two "rotaries" (sophisticated) in Hutchinson. If we call them roundabouts outsiders will just wonder how long the circus will be in town.


Submitted by Garagemonkey on July 10, 2008 - 5:00pm.

Garagemonkey I already do...

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Garagemonkey I already do drive the "ROTARY" successfully EVERY DAY in fact. It is because I drive it I know its issues. Today in fact I watched two cars approach it on Montana headed for Hwy 15. They stopped before entering, one after the other. There were no cars except we three headed toward Hwy.15. I am sure I freaked the one driver out by not stopping and coming up behind him. Eventually any one using it regularly COULD get the hang of it (even people like me who have never had a driving ticket, have never passed anyone on the right, or have never used left turn lanes wrong) BUT as stated above many of the drivers on Hwy. 15 will be just passing through. So it will be an EXPENSIVE, four way stop. Or like Woodbury we too will be experiencing a few fender benders. Sorry if you interpret my experiences and observations as complaints. They are still valid.


Submitted by arcy on July 10, 2008 - 6:22pm.

So, arcy, you figgered it...

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So, arcy, you figgered it out, everyone else will eventually and then things will flow as smooth as the MNDOT people say it should work. I assume your vote is for "rotary" vs. "roundabout"??
I think we should wait a few years to name them, just to see how they work out. If it's bad we don't want to name them after someone we love. But if it's good we can name it the "your choise here" memorial rotary. Or even sell naming rights to cover the cost of construction. What an idea, I've got to get in on this.


Submitted by Garagemonkey on July 10, 2008 - 10:49pm.

I can't believe all the...

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I can't believe all the "this-and-that" about the roundabouts. It doesn't seem that hard to drive through one. Ever been through a revolving door? I assume you caught on that you need to get off without going round and round and round... you get my drift? Now we are in debate about what to call them... good grief, I miss the days when the simple folks of this fine village fought over who should attend McWest and where the high school should be located. I'ts just a matter of time when McWester's will want one of those magic circle shaped twirlers that you drive through. Just wait until two tractors meet at the same time... the gravel will really fly then!


Submitted by ThAtSsOrAvEn on July 11, 2008 - 12:52am.

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